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Post by granty on Feb 22, 2017 20:35:31 GMT
I left school in 1979 aged 16. Back then, most of us just did what our dads did and got an apprenticeship in the shipyards. The river was booming, and anyone that wanted an apprenticeship got one. I done four years as a shipbuilder. But now the river is as dead as Dodo, never mind, at least I've got a trade where I can fabricate any metal object.
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Post by sherri on Feb 22, 2017 20:39:44 GMT
Sherri If that is how the vouchers are meant to work, how can some parents double dip? Of course parents can spend the money as they like in a voucher system. Covering parents on top of this is just wasteful and not how it is meant to work. Furthermore, the vouchers are meant to be in-kind, not cash. In-kind vs cash is a big area of debate in economic policy. Most of the time I'd err on cash. Not with vouchers though. Think about it, the parents hold the funds in a constructive trust. "The real difference is in the students. Private schools can expel students, they can refuse to accept students who are below the academic level they want, usually those students have parents who are paying for their education and care how they are doing." ...and why is that? If the indigent had school choice, they would care more. They have no ownership or responsibility in the process now. Even middle class and affluent people in state schools now have no say. Got a complaint?....what are you going to do about it? A centralised curricula makes it worse. Say you're a data analyst. Say you've read Beenstock, Polder and Reigenwertz. Say you've read Svensmark's paper proving that clouds are formed by cosmic ray interaction. You know global warming is simply crap - the models have never passed scrutiny (they fail cointegration testing). Your kid legally has to learn this pseudoscientific garbage. Worst of all is the education department. Not a single cent spent there gives any return. Look at NSW, they just decided after decades that spelling and grammar now matter for the HSC (final senior high school exams for poms). Yeah great move guys. I'm sure parents and teachers never could have made that decision for themselves. The thing is sherri I always side with good teachers and principals. Centralisation makes education schooling and a joke. I am not sure why you say people who use state schools don't have a choice. That isn't the case in Victoria. as long as there is room, a parent can send their child to any school they choose to. Schools have open days. Our school would escort parents around at any time they called in. I had to take a few parents on tours in my time. At our school, we had over 70% of students who were not actually in our geographical catchment area, they came from other suburbs. Some were siblings and priority with enrolment would always go to siblings of present students. It did get to the stage where our prin said he would have to knock back some prep enrolments if they got past the 120 mark as there just was no room, not enough buildings for an extra class. That is legal. But parents here routinely choose a school for their children. Usually it will be in their suburb but it won't necessarily be the closest school, which is what probably would have happened 30 or 40 years ago.
And what on earth are you on, that you think global warming is taught in schools? I have never seen anything remotely like that on any primary school curriculum anyway. In fact I can recall being in a Year 6 class and having students tell me it was so, and me telling them it was a theory only which some scientists believed and some didn't. I can't speak for all teachers but I would say most try to keep away from getting too involved in off topic discussions.
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Post by mrp on Feb 23, 2017 6:34:42 GMT
If they want to move their kid into a private school, the funding isn't portable (for them). Furthermore, the department will fund under-performing schools.
Global warming is part of the curriculum - even if it isn't part of primary school.
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Post by mrp on Feb 23, 2017 6:36:46 GMT
"I came to the conclusion that the people who attend Charter Schools have parents that care and are willing to work with their children....most Public Schools...........not so much.
Education is a family matter. When families fail..........so do the children."
That's true and well known.
If you give people zero ownership, they have no incentive or interest to be responsible.
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Post by sherri on Feb 24, 2017 22:13:20 GMT
Of course it is true. But what is happening a lot in education at the moment is that all failings are being blamed on the teacher. Bad NAPLAN results? Let's get in more trainers for that teacher, let's bring in payment by results etc
I'm not saying teachers should not be accountable and that all teachers are equal as I know that isn't so.
But I can well remember one experience several years back where I was at a meeting (not general staff, leaders) where the prin was explaining how the teacher made a difference and there was one Year 2 class that had outshone the others and the only reason he could explain a big discrepancy was the teaching. I made myself hugely unpopular as I chimed in to say I could guess whose class it was. It was the class with the male teacher. And the reason his class was so good was because at the end of Year 1, we were made to divide our classes for the next year in halves. He got my girls and some other class's boys. Almost all my girls had been high fliers, really good students, while quite a few of my boys had been weak. So the next year, the lucky male teacher happened to get a group with a lot of great girls and this time they were coupled with a group of boys that weren't too bad either, from another class. I'm not saying he wasn't a good teacher-he was appointed as a prin at another school not too long after- but your raw material makes a huge difference. Massive.
At the moment, in the state system, the students are the elephants in the room. No one can really see them. All they see is their results & they put it all down to teaching or the school.
That is not to say state schools have no success and people have no ownership. It is what you make it. Parents here do pick their child's school. Many of them are very active in the school-school council, fundraising, helping in the classroom. Parents who help in the classroom are sending a message to their kids that they are involved and interested and often those kids do better.
On the other hand, if you have kids who were born with foetal alcohol syndrome or whose parents are drug addicts, drunks or bashers, then giving those parents vouchers to use at the school of their choice ain't going to make one iota of difference. If they are dysfunctional and poor, they often distrust education anyway, they certainly don't value it and don't particularly want their kids doing well or getting above themselves.
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Post by mrp on Feb 25, 2017 8:54:46 GMT
Oh god NAPLAN is bullshit! freakonomics.com/2011/07/06/massive-teacher-cheating-scandal-uncovered-in-atlanta/It will happen everytime. All you can do is make it easier to principals to get rid of bad teachers, performance can only really be judged in hindsight in improvements under or over the stage parameters. Not everyone from a bad background's parents won't care for their educational progress. Sure they are less likely to care, but you can't write them off.
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Post by sherri on Feb 25, 2017 11:53:21 GMT
What do you call a bad background? Poverty in itself is not a bad background. Absolutely not.
Just as being wealthy doesn't mean those parents will always support their children.
To me, a bad background is one where there is violence or real social problems and the parents aren't coping terribly well. I wouldn't say those parents don't care about their kids. I don't think I have met any parents who don't care. But that caring may not take the form of valuing their education or trying to help them with their work etc
And even if children do come from a 'bad' background, that doesn't mean those children can't shine or aren't bright. Sometimes they have massive potential. The school's job is to foster that.
The trouble comes with disrupted schooling. I have a friend who does volunteer work in schools once a week, supporting children at risk. She had one little girl in year 1, girl with a single mum, who had been at 24 schools in a year, and was behind. Sure enough, a few weeks into it, the mum took off to Qld with daughter & new boyfriend and never returned. School number 25 after that, I guess. I'm sure the mum loved her daughter but sometimes love isn't enough.
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