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Post by DADDY O on Nov 6, 2017 0:10:19 GMT
I didn't stutter. So Far 26 Dead and 20 Wounded in SE Texas Massacre in a Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, Texas......about 30 miles SE of San Antonio.
Shooter was a white male and most of his victims were black. As he left the church, a local resident took his AR 15 (an assault rifle) away from him. He got into his truck and fled the scene, but the local resident pursued him and shot him dead, according to CNN.
Victims range from age 5 to 72.
More later as news breaks.......oh, and he had a "Make America Great Again" bumper sticker on his truck.....according to CNN.
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Post by sherri on Nov 6, 2017 10:15:36 GMT
These big shooting totals seem to be something of an American.. I don't know what... almost like a contest. One or two shot doesn't seem to cut it any more these days. Too many whackos, too many guns, too many whackos with guns.
Not that I think you have a higher % of crazies than anywhere else, it is just that over the last few years they seem to have picked on mass shootings as their preferred outlet for aggression.
There's no way out of it that I can see, I think you'll just have to be prepared to have one of these rampages every couple of months or so till killers move on to the new big thing.
I'm convinced they learn by example, get some of their ideas by what has gone before. I did hear he was ex military. I wonder why he did it though.
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Post by DADDY O on Nov 6, 2017 15:27:33 GMT
No one knows.....or says why he did it, but he was dishonorably discharged from the USA Air Force because he not only beat his wife, but his child as well. He spent 20 months in a Military Prison for that little event.
Both of his In-Laws were members of the Church.
He purchased an AR-15 rifle (assault weapon) a year earlier. He lied on his application to purchase by not checking "Have you ever been convicted of a crime:, and "Have you ever had mental problems in the past". The "Check is this guy is a nut, and Check if this guy has a criminal record" apparently was ignored by those granting him a weapon permit. I'm sure those Bubbas have been fired and are walking out of the door as I type this.......too late.
Early news reporting on this side of the pond really sucks. The majority of the people he shot and killed were not black.....they were not white (Hispanics and Blacks). The Minister and his Daughter were black.
He went to a gas station across the street from the Church and opened fired on those church members talking together before the service started. He killed two and wounded 3 outside the church. He then ran inside the church and killed 18 more and wounded 17 more. On his way out, a next door neighbor to the church grabbed his AR-15 and took it away from him. He then fled back to the gas station and sped off. The neighbor jumped in his truck and another neighbor jumped in his truck as well, they were both armed, and pursued him. They crashed their truck and his as well to run him off the road. Neighbor #2 got out of the truck and immediately shot the shooter dead. Those guys are the real; heroes of this incident..................normal people who own guns and abide by the law.
More to follow on my ideas of gun control.
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Post by sherri on Nov 6, 2017 21:52:22 GMT
The fault for the killings lies with the shooter, 100%.
But those people who issue permits or whatever have a duty of care not to just believe whatever anyone ticks on a form. The person needs to go through a police check before a licence is issued. Now that computers have been around a few years, there is no reason why criminal records, mental records etc can't be kept on secured central websites. I know no website is ever totally secure but let's face it, the records are on small websites anyway so a stringently secured website that covered the country would be no worse.
So in short, those people who issued him a permit without checking need to face charges.
I think their whole attitude stems from the past 'anything goes, it's our right' attitude to guns that is or was rampant in some American sectors. They obviously didn't think it was that important.
I'm not saying that all law abiding people need to be locked out of gun ownership at all. Just that gradually, I think your state & federal governments need to get people used to the idea there is accountability. They will have to jump through some stringent checks every year before their licence is renewed (at their cost) and that some categories of military grade weapons will not be legal on the open market.
I am glad the man is dead to tell the truth. Did he get the in laws? I'd say he was aiming to.
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Post by joethenuts on Nov 6, 2017 21:59:54 GMT
no offence to you daddy o, you say these 2 neighbors went after a un armed man crashed into him and shot an un armed person , and there heroes , havent they comited 1st degree murder. and endangering lives on the road. this is the problem there that i can see, you cant have civilians goin of out shooting people even though he deserved it. people cant take the law into there own hands. also would it not be better not to kill him and lock him up in prison for the rest of his life getting a belting . just my opinion.
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Post by sherri on Nov 6, 2017 22:11:40 GMT
I would say that over here, those neighbours who pursued him & shot him would face serious charges. That's because of the fact they chased him & shot him, knowing he was unarmed. The part about taking his gun off him would be fine, following him to find where he lived would be fine. If they grabbed him & made a citizens arrest & held him under restraint till law arrived, that would be fine. If he got a bit hurt in the scuffle, no worries. But the shooting part would not be fine, not unless they made up a story that he ran at them when they stopped the car & attempted to grab the gun back & got killed by an accidental discharge. I wonder how close they were to him when the shooting happened. They should have tried to cover their backsides with their story, or over here they would have needed to, anyway.
On our news just yesterday was a man who was in court facing trial, he was released without charge, but what happened was 2 years back he heard his neighbour screaming, ran in & there was a house invader, he wrestled with the man & the invader was killed.
There was another case where a home invader was killed one night by the house owner. (not in a shooting). He is still in jail. Personally I don't think he necessarily should be but I think there must be more to the story than we are being told. The legal statement is. legal expert Sam Macedone said a person was “entitled” to defend themselves if an intruder entered their home and the resident believed they were under threat. “If you defend yourself in a way that you believe is necessary, that’s fine — providing what you do is a reasonable response as you perceive it.” Mr Macedone said it depended largely on what the person was thinking. The danger was if the police believed the homeowner went “overboard”, it was no longer self-defence but a criminal act. “You have to stop when the threat abates,” Mr Macedone said. Manslaughter usually applied if the attacker did not intend to cause the person to die. But if police believe there is a “reckless indifference to grievous bodily harm”, a murder charge is still possible.
I personally have no time for the invader's family statement & I do wish news media wouldn't bother to report it.
Here is what they said:
The family of Mr Slater-Dickson, who gathered outside Newcastle Local Court on Monday, claimed he had not broken into the house at all but had gone there to attend a party.
The man’s mother, Beryl Dickson, told reporters her three grandchildren would now grow up without a father.
“They’ve lost their father, their beautiful father that they haven’t seen for years because he was in jail,” she said.Ms Dickson said her son, who had served jail time for break-and-enter offences, was back on an even keel before his death. “He might have done his time but he was a good boy. He was dedicated to his family.
As I said, I think there are some questions about this death, which is why the man is in jail. I'd say the circumstances are murky. usually if you fight someone (home invader etc) & they are accidentally killed, there is an investigation & maybe trial but you are released. But I'd be 100% sure chasing after someone to shoot them would be classified as a crime because in law they would say the threat had abated.
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Post by beachbum on Nov 7, 2017 0:54:09 GMT
News reports over here seem to differ.
There seems to be some confusion if he is actually dead.
When he was shot, he had several other weapons in the car with him so it's fair to say these men may actually be heroes.
Some reports say he may have shot himself.
Why does everyone always lean towards sympathy for these scumbags before the facts are all out in the open.
Who knows how many more he may have shot if he had been allowed to continue his rampage.
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Post by joethenuts on Nov 7, 2017 2:12:12 GMT
beachbum i can only go by reports here and from daddy0 it reads on his way out [so no more killings ] he had his rifle taken and then followed by 2 people both with guns , even if they did not kill him [what were they doing chasing him with guns , were did the other chap get a gun with in prob seconds .
this is the problem too many guns available for the price of a few packets of cigaretes, if guns were banned how would this bloke has so many guns that he soposed to have , in this country guns are banned unless you have a special shooters licence or certain farmerss,yes bad people get ilegal guns , but have to pay aprox$10.000 for one so a bloke like this woukd not aford lots of guns, and yes he is a scumbag , but we cant let the public decide or the public to be the police.
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Post by sherri on Nov 7, 2017 8:52:39 GMT
News reports over here seem to differ. There seems to be some confusion if he is actually dead. When he was shot, he had several other weapons in the car with him so it's fair to say these men may actually be heroes. Some reports say he may have shot himself. Why does everyone always lean towards sympathy for these scumbags before the facts are all out in the open. Who knows how many more he may have shot if he had been allowed to continue his rampage. I haven't come across anyone with sympathy for the scumbags. All I'm saying is that over here, you are only allowed to defend yourself till the danger abates. If you take the initiative & continue an attack once someone starts to run away or if for instance you shot or stabbed them in the back, there would be trouble. That's the legal situation here. I'm not saying I'm sorry the gunman is dead.
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Post by DADDY O on Nov 7, 2017 17:09:30 GMT
no offence to you daddy o, you say these 2 neighbors went after a un armed man crashed into him and shot an un armed person , and there heroes , havent they comited 1st degree murder. and endangering lives on the road. this is the problem there that i can see, you cant have civilians goin of out shooting people even though he deserved it. people cant take the law into there own hands. also would it not be better not to kill him and lock him up in prison for the rest of his life getting a belting . just my opinion.
My apologizes Beachy, I did not read your last post before I wrote this one.
First of all Beachy, never, ever apologize to any of us if we have different opinions.....this is why I love talking to the Canadians, Aussies and Brits. We all learn from this. We may disagree from time to time, but it is still a learning experience. Just never refer to me as Tugger...................LOL.
I did not know this at the time I posted my message, but he was not unarmed. The DPS (State Troopers) found a 9mm handgun, and a .22 caliber pistol in his truck. I'm not sure why the .22 was there........they are only good for shooting Possums in your kitchen. Apparently, he was ignorant of what he was doing.........after all, he came from the Air Force, which is like a "weekend warrior (National Guard). Nevertheless, the two neighbors saw 2 dead people and 3 wounded outside the church and had enough balls, so to speak, to not only approach the shooter, but to take his gun away from him......(Hero #1 medal goes to them). Then they pursued him at a 90mph speed chase and made the decision to not only crash his truck, but theirs as well.......(Hero #2 medal goes to them). Next, and I admit that it is not reported that the shooter picked up his weapon, however, one of them shot the man dead. (Hero #3 medal goes to him).
This was a tragic situation, and the men reacted correctly.....in my opinion. The shooter is driving at 90 mph...who knows who he could have killed while fleeing at that speed? The shooter just killed 2 and wounded 3 outside of the church, the men crashed their own truck to stop him, and most likely will have to pay the bill themselves for the totaling of the truck. And you ask "Why didn't they just have the police capture him, try him and sentence him"?
If this happened in Canada, or Australia, or Britain.......what would the police do there? Well, the first thing they would do is to try and find an officer with a gun.....am I wrong about that? Then everyone could wait for the officer to get there. Then, after the shooter had fled, no one would have pursued him...how would anyone know where he was. Then, the shooter (who had nothing to lose at that time) would most probably kill more people to, I don't know, to steal another vehicle, maybe a McDonalds person because he was hungry and did not have money on him to pay for it? Who knows.
This is a very small town, with 650 residents. About 50 people are dead or wounded. Everybody in this town is affected. The killer is dead, and no one in this community has to pay (through their taxes) for the costs to convict him, appeals, or to imprison him for life, or to execute him (most probable scenario). So tell me Beachy....if I walked into your house and shot your wife dead, how much would you be willing to pay for me to spend the rest of my life in prison? And if I threw my gun on the floor and you picked it up, would you shoot me? I hope you would, and if you did.........Hero #4 medal goes to you, my friend.
This is differing opinions, and I hope I did not offend you.....and feel free to tell me I'm wrong.....just don't ever call me Tugger.
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Post by sherri on Nov 7, 2017 19:06:43 GMT
Over here all police are armed & wear bullet proof vests 100% of the time, even in the station on desk duty. They're not all sharp shooters though-but do go to shooting practice once a year I think it is. Might be twice, not sure.
I think the police in any of our countries would have eventually tracked this man down and in a relatively short space of time. I think that mainly because the man had some connections with people in the church & had a criminal & mental record by the sounds of it. Plus he had gun licences & people would have seen the type of car he was driving. In a mass shooting of this sort, every police resource would be thrown at it and I would say the man would be in custody within 24 hours.
So the man was always going to get caught. Of course it was better to have him caught asap. The man who disarmed him-I think that took guts, I don't know that I would like to try it myself, it's high risk stuff.
Over here, the advice to the public is always not to approach anyone who is armed & dangerous. Some people still do of course but I wouldn't be critical of anyone who didn't or anything.
When it comes to sentencing, over here there is no death penalty. The only thing I really dislike about this scenario is the fact some of our multiple murderers keep appealing-they want better conditions in their cell or they think their sentence is too long or they want to be released & of course the tax payer is picking up the legal bill for it all.
I don't know that it is always an easy call to say exactly what is wrong/right, every case has to be judged on its own merits. In this case, I think the 2 men who chased the killer had just cause but I can also see the danger if people take the law into their own hands.
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Post by granty on Nov 7, 2017 19:34:42 GMT
Every country has its fair share of mentally disturbed idiots. Only the US is so big and the gun laws so relaxed, this is always going to happen. I'm really glad we haven't got gun laws like the US, the Muslim's would have wiped the lot of us out by now.
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Post by joethenuts on Nov 7, 2017 21:54:34 GMT
no offence daddyo you say he was driving at 90 mph and could of course damage , well why do you think he was driving that fast[he was been followed in a truck by 2 blokes shooting at him] how is that not dangerous, even if they wornt shooting they were trying to stop him. if they shot him outside the church [fair enough] but these 2 men somehow had weapons and chased him for miles then shot him, i am afraid they will go to gaol for a long time , 1st degree murder . now i know you guys love your guns but people should not use them because they want to take the law into there own hands. but this is my opinion.
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Post by beachbum on Nov 8, 2017 0:56:24 GMT
no offence daddyo you say he was driving at 90 mph and could of course damage , well why do you think he was driving that fast[he was been followed in a truck by 2 blokes shooting at him] how is that not dangerous, even if they wornt shooting they were trying to stop him. if they shot him outside the church [fair enough] but these 2 men somehow had weapons and chased him for miles then shot him, i am afraid they will go to gaol for a long time , 1st degree murder . now i know you guys love your guns but people should not use them because they want to take the law into there own hands. but this is my opinion. First of all, these people are not taking the law into their own hands. They are doing what the US laws say they are entitled to do in circumstances like this and thankfully so. The chances of them being seen as anything other than community minded heroes is slim. These men didn't "somehow" have weapons, they were carrying them legally under the laws of the USA Once again, we have the old lefty mantra rearing its ugly head. It usually boils down to "The criminals are victims and the law abiding majority are criminals.
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Post by joethenuts on Nov 8, 2017 8:26:47 GMT
oh well we just have to disagree.
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